Help with seized engine... follow up from previous question "bike wont start"

[83cb650]

Hi me again thanks for all the help with my last question, i was saying how i wanted to start a seperate topic for help me with the engine teardown.

Well i think i found the crankshaft bolt i believe it is the bolt below the pulse generator on the right hand side, if i am correct i tried turning it and had very hard time it would only wiggle from left to right, so if that is the crank bolt that would therefore mean my engine is seized, now i am going to buy that mystery oil and put in cylinders and see if that helps, if not i will start tearing down the top end and taking pictures as i go. I have no idea what to look for when tearing down so hopefully the pictures will help.  But tonight i started taking the exhaust off....dont worry i have a manual, and tomorrow i will take the camshaft cover off and snap some pics, and go from there. Thanks for all the help with my last post hopefully i will get a lot of insight on this one as well,thanks for any inputs

[chas550sc]

congrats on taking the most imjprotant step in yuour success, which is doing it yourself. I don't kno wwhat it is, but dealership shops have uncaring idiots working for them who will not succeed in making your bike right, but you (with the support of this great crew here) will.

btw, you may find this link helpful too:
http://www.vf750fd.com/vf750f/Honda_Common_Service_Manual.pdf

[ariwhiteboy]

Good on you for getting the Marvel Mystery Oil, let that stuff soak in there for a week then get to work.  We will be cheering for you! 

[83cb650]

update: i just started to teardown the engine yesterday and today i got the camshaft covers off, removed everything except the camshaft and sprockets, i cant figure out how to loosen the camshaft chain i have the manual and saw that there is a lockplate that i am suppose to push down and then pop the plate up? My chain adjuster lock plate is facing down and to the bottom right like this ( \ ) the middle being the lockplate how am i suppose to loosen the chain up?  I was able to get the sprocket bolts out by turning the bolt behind the pulse generator cover. But it moved very easily i thought  my engine was seized? i tried turning the bolt directly bellow the pulse generator cover the other day and it wouldnt move. Was i possibly turning the wrong bolt? or is the one behind the pulse generator cover connected directly to the crank? hopefully its the second one that would make my week, also the PO stated that there was possibly a bent valve. What should i be looking for when i start to tear down the head? Will i be able to see it Visibly  or will i have to take valves out and measure? Also i accidentally broke the oil plugs that are on the 4 sides of the cylinder head cover if i buy a gasket set will these come with the set? if not what options do i have for that? Thanks for looking and any help would be appreciated.

[ariwhiteboy]

This may be a dumb question but do you have a manual?  If not I advise you against tearing down blind.

P.S. Use labeled baggies or containers to keep track of all the small bits, it cuts down on headache later. 

[Munkey]

Correct, the large bolt at the center of the pulse generator is the bolt you want to use to turn the crank. You only want to turn in the direction of the arrow.

On the cam chain tensioner, you'll probably need to pull the lock plate up a little with a screwdriver or something to free it up enough to be able to push the lock pin down. Not sure if that's making sense or not. When I've done mine, it's usually in kind of a bind at first until you pull it up to release it.

It's good news that you engine is probably not seized. Once you get the head off, it should be obvious if one of the valves is bent. There will probably be more than one bent.

If the oil plugs you are talking about are what I think they are, then yes, they do come in the gasket kit. Most aftermarket sets have them molded to the valve cover gasket.



 

[Laminar]

This may be a dumb question but do you have a manual?

i have the manual and saw that there is a lockplate that i am suppose to push down and then pop the plate up?

To get the tensioner to release, scroll down a ways on this page.

I put a torx deck screw in a vice grip and used the hole in the screw head to push down on the tensioner pin.

[ariwhiteboy]

Busted by the thread police again...

[83cb650]

So now that i found out that my engine is not seized, what should i be looking for when tearing down the head,i got the cam chain off, was a  pain in the ass though lol, so since my crank can turn what should i be looking for? whats the reason for the bike not wanting to start? any insight would be helpful

[Laminar]

Plenty of reasons, all of which are diagnosed with the engine still assembled.

[83cb650]

Insert Quote
Plenty of reasons, all of which are diagnosed with the engine still assembled.
Posted on: Today at 01:53:12 PM
Posted by: 83cb650

When i had the engine intact the starter motor would not turn so i posted a previous question stating that i thought it might be the ignition coils but everyone said the starter should at least turn so thats how i got to the tear down of the engine.

[Munkey]

When i had the engine intact the starter motor would not turn so i posted a previous question stating that i thought it might be the ignition coils but everyone said the starter should at least turn so thats how i got to the tear down of the engine.

The ignition coils fire the spark plugs, they have nothing to do with engine turning over. They are not your problem. At least not at this point.

Your starter motor could be bad.

Is your alternator turning when you turn the engine over with the wrench?

If the PO said there "might be a bent valve", then the possibilty of a bent valve or 3 is very high. May as well go ahead and pull the head to find out.

[flynavyj]

Hey, Glad your engine isn't seized. Do you happen to know why the PO said he thought it had a bent valve? Take your time with this disassembly and you'll come out alright. As stated earlier, the spark won't have anything to do with the engine turning over, but it can have an awful lot to do with the engine not running after it is turning over.

I can't remember if you were hearing the starter solenoid clicking when you attempted to start the bike? If not, how's your battery? If the battery is charged (showing 12 volts) i'd recommend you to test the solenoid as mentioned in the manual, or you can test it by crossing the poles on the solenoid. If your solenoid is clicking, i'd just wonder why your starter isn't turning. I've recently gone through the "starter blues". Removing the starter is very very simple (two bolts and one nut) after you remove the unit you can follow the steps in the manual for disassembly (two screws) and you can inspect the starter as described in the manual. Take some photos and we can tell you if we notice some abnormalities in the starter.

As for your bent valve, removing the cylinder head shouldn't be overly difficult, neither is putting it back together once your done. After you are finished though, make sure all your timing marks are aligned, and be sure and turn the engine over by hand before you EVER attempt to use the starter to crank the motor over...If you've assembled it correctly, you'll be fine, but if you feel even the slightest binding when cranking it by hand, disassemble it again and find out what's wrong...It'll save you some major $$ and headache in the long run!

[flynavyj]

Any updates or progress?

I just replaced my bad starter for a used "good" one (working well right now thankfully) and the reason i said make sure your battery is showing a minimum of 12 volts, is that my battery had gotten down to about 11.9 or so, and didn't have enough juice to turn the starter, you'd get a single click out of the solenoid, but that was all. Got her charged up so she's holding 12.7 volts or so, will drop to 12.5 with the ignition on, and one push of the start button makes the little electric motor whiz away like crazy. Have you gotten any further into your cylinder head?

[83cb650]

Update Thurs-Sunday

Sorry it took so long to update been working and didnt have much time to work on the engine, on Thursday i got home from work and was able to get the camshafts off, along with the sprockets, i have a question about the camshafts on Friday when i got them out a few of the lobes had a  been worn down to the point were they was actually scratching the rocker arm pads, so what would be my best option here? Should i just get new camshafts? or take it to a machine shop? Also i will be replacing the rocker arms. Did not work on it at all on Saturday had to work a double so was really tired. But today i just got the rocker arms, holders and tappets off (dont worry i made sure to label each tappet so put back in exact spot). Dont have a valve compressor so will have to go and buy one tomorrow, so until tomorrow i wont work on it anymore. Will update when i get cylinder head off and check valves and pistons, 

[83cb650]

got the lifters out, was working on cam chain tension er got the 4 cap nuts off holding it down,next step was  to lift up  assemble, but i could not get the assembly to move and didn't want to try and pry it off so my question is can i still get tension-er guide off with the assembly still in its orginal spot? or, do i have to somehow get that off? Also does it matter which way the lock plate is? because i got it up to get the chain off and, have to pull chain guide and slipper up to remove the pins securing each one and with the way the lock plate is now i cant move the guide up so was wondering if its matters which way the plate is?

[83cb650]

Question: I was working on removing the cylinder block and cant get too the front two bolts above the engine guard, can i take the guard off? I know you can but is it safe? i dont know if the engine will fall forward? I am frustrated cause i dont have any other ideas of how to get those bolts out? help plz
 

[Munkey]

Question: I was working on removing the cylinder block and cant get too the front two bolts above the engine guard, can i take the guard off? I know you can but is it safe? i dont know if the engine will fall forward? I am frustrated cause i dont have any other ideas of how to get those bolts out? help plz
 

I use a small 6 point box end wrench to get those off. Never really had much trouble with them. The ones in back are harder.

Not sure about your engine guard, do you have to pull the engine mounts to remove it?

[chas550sc]

If the gaurd goes through the engine mount bolts, remove the bolt on one side and put it in from the back side so that the gaurd can come free but the mount is still supported. repeat for other side and then you should be ok to ocntinue. Obviously remember to reinstall later.

[Munkey]

As long as the other mounts are still on, the engine won't move.

[83cb650]

update: Gonna be getting the head off tonight sometime, then will see how everything looks, I called honda to see prices for new rocker arms and valves guess how much? 2000 dollars yea just for that, so i guess i will have to buy used. Also  does ne1 know a good website for a gasket set? i cant find ne on ebay. Also could my starter motor be out would that be the reason my starter wouldn't  turn when i pressed start button, i know the starter is good cause i had it tested, I figured i check that because i was being STUPID and dropped the pin on the cam chain tensioner into the crank so will have to dig it out so might  as well check while i have everything out. thanks for ne help

[83cb650]

I am so pissed since i snapped the two bolts holding the rear of the head on i cant get it off i was trying to hit the fins with mallet but wont budge so now i have to remove alternator and try and drill them out this is getting me so frustrated.

[chas550sc]

Patience

[SmokinFast]

...What should i be looking for when i start to tear down the head? Will i be able to see it Visibly  or will i have to take valves out and measure?

When you have the cylinder head off and upside down, you can identify a bent valve by the fact that it wont be fully seated into the head. Should be easy to spot.

... dropped the pin on the cam chain tensioner into the crank so will have to dig it out so might  as well check while i have everything out. thanks for ne help

You'll need to retrieve the tensioner pin.

Worst case is that it landed between opposing transmission gears and will require splitting the cases to get it out.

Best case is that you remove the oil pan and find the pin in the bottom, or you're able to flush it out with oil.

I hope you can get it the easy way.

[coffee_brake]

Wow, slow down and move carefully.

You should in no case have to be so rough with the head that you snap off the bolts. The torques here are critical, those bolts have to come out. And they are very hard bolts, no normal easy-out is going to work here.

that said, when I removed the oil pan from my basket-case 750, I found half a bolt in there and half of a drill bit too. The bike ran for who knows how long with those large pieces moving around till they found their way into the oil pan sump. Thank goodness too, can you imaging half of a drill bit (1/4"!!!) getting into the tranny gears?